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ambivalentmace: you already got some "thumbs up" But I wonder is that merely because of the harshness of your tone. I hope that isn't the case. Again, no criticism of you, ambivalentmace, but I'm sure you know that many folks are more interested in the popularity of hyperbole and confrontation
Jan 30, 2013 12:18 Report Abuse
Ambivalentmace: well, at least you made some comment about the issue of CRIME and JUSTICE. Again, however, it is hardly productive to speak about the fact that Chinese people may not say what they really think. SO LET'S JUST FOCUS ON THE ACTUAL QUOTE IN THE ARTICLE, where the restaurant worker said he/she understood Mr. Hale's "point" but he/she felt that Mr. Hale's "reaction was over the top." And oh my heavens you must try to be more careful: unless you add some sort of comment which indicates that you don't think all Chinese are incabable of being honest and fully actualized your comments sound 'racist." To speak of all Chinese in this manner is actually worse then when a Chinese person speaks of all foreigners as though they were cut from the same cloth. I mean, sometimes we do steroetype for the sake of convenience . . . I'm sure I do as well, but I try to add conditional statemenst which suggest I am not being racist. As I said earlier, the concept of racism is not very well empowered in China and so, in China, it is a bit unfair to call "racially motivated" behavior or comments "racism" (There is a discussion going on right now on other sites about the seemingly 'racist' behavior of taxi drivers in Beijing -- but I don't think it is fair to label as racist people who have no conception of racism). I suspect you have had an opportunity to learn what racism means . . . and so that would make your comments real "racism." Your comments are quite off-putting, don't you think? An it is very easy to prove that you are simply wrong. For example, I could introduce you to my wife and many of her friends, who are very open minded and accepting of others. In any case, I prefer to have a bit more faith in people. And you might consider that such negative comments will only speed the conditions you speak of and do nothing to garner respect from the many Chinese people who admire much about the West. And, if America is in some respects guilty of imperialistic tendancies, it is certinaly not the goal of normal Americans that America become an Empire. There may be some in America, in positions of power, who have hijacked the real goals of American people just as there are likely people in power in China who have hijacked the real goals of normal citizens here.
Jan 30, 2013 14:48 Report Abuse
The approach I think which we westerners should take -- given most of us working here are in China as part of China's desire to "open up and learn from the west", is to try and help people in China put voice to social changes that we enjoy in our countries, changes that the Chinese clearly want, such as more transparency in their justice system, i.e, THE RULE OF LAW. Now, if you are suggesting that I am 'pushing a snowball up hill' or 'swimming against the current' . . . well, that is not news to me -- I have written again and again that "it can take a lot of words to make a simple point in our world." I believe that my aims mirror the aims of the best thinkers in China and so I choose to believe that my goals, those goals, are worth getting a few "thumbs down" here on the internet.
Jan 30, 2013 14:48 Report Abuse
Ambivalentmace: and I have to ask you again. why did you choose the screen name "ambivalent . . ."? Your comments are certainly not ambivalent; they are exceedingly decided and un-ambivalent. I would appreciate a direct response to my question, if you please. Come to think of it, though, even an ambivalent response would clarify. That was a bit more humour.
Jan 30, 2013 15:01 Report Abuse
Alexander: Take a look at the distracting comments above, comments such as: how Chinese people don't say what they mean -- without any suggestion as to how limited freedom in China may make this largely true, that make such comments simple racism; or comments about how foreigners are all the same -- without any consideration for how foreigners might think all Chinese are the same, neither party really trying to see the other's perspective, which are often examples of people who are intent on something other than what motivates me; or comments about how America is an empire -- without any thought as to the difference between the real goals of people and the way in which the political/economic goals of a few hijack the desires of normal people, in America and here in China and in all countries; it is comments about whatever might happen after one is "in hell" -- comments that are added for very obvious and negative reason, that are really SPAMMING OUR MINDS AND OUR TIME here on the internet. Those comments I just pointed to are very much like the hyperbole and thoughtless commentary, 'stuff' that hides the real issues, which brought me to this discussion in the first place and caused me to be so danged persistent. And I get your point about how it might be best to just ignore such things. But this is my internet too and if no one offers a bit of reason and patience such wonderful things as reason and patience will disappear. And it will reguire a greater and greater number of words to make a simple point in the world." Or the very idea of "simple points" may become extinct. Not to mention how dangerous and selfish such comments are.
Jan 30, 2013 15:18 Report Abuse
Yes, indeed, it does feel like biting off more than we can chew when we try to do what is right (if you will allow me some self-affacing humour, I have experienced that on this site). That feeling is especially common, wouldn't you agree, when there is no proper procedure for doing what is right? That is why it seems to me that the issue here is about the procedure, the Justice System. Aside from those who are really just gossiping, we all seem to feel that some trusted Justice is needed. Even those who suggest that hacking Mr. Hale's website is "justice"; even these people are, in their own way, trying to find some way to do what is right. And so it seems clear that the real issue is to do with the procedure -- very few, seem to think that Mr. Hale's actions were correct but we can understand his anger, even the restaurant owners understood that. Mr. Hale is one example of a person who PROCEEDED to seek "justice" in a very foolish way, as were the people who hacked his websites, as are the people who agree that hacking his website was correct. It seems clear they all acted as they did because there is no trusted, mature justice procedures. If we give all of these people the benefit of our doubt -- and try to avoid speaking of "Muslim Extremists", and avoid speaking of Mr. Hale's personal life, and try to avoid racially bias comments about foreigners or Chinese (avoid inflaming the discussion and distracting ourselves, and) if we are equally fair minded to all these people, it seems clear that they are all looking for "justice", in a country that doesn't really give Justice much power. That power, in developed countries, comes from the RULE OF LAW. I hope you will see that I am trying to find ways for us all to find common ground so we can work together. In all countries, not just China, the "powers that be" often have more power, yes indeed . . . but when normal citizens work together, patiently, they can become the "powers that be." History has proven this again and again.
Jan 31, 2013 16:18 Report Abuse
Guest7816: I hope you will forgive me for adding my comments to your reply to Alexander. I was very pleased to final see some comments about the real issue. When you write about "how difficult it can be to do the right thing," clearly you are referring to the same sort of circumstance that I have been. So it's good that we can find a bit of agreement. I have often referred to how people over-react when they seek JUSTICE if Justice is not given power. AND you are referring to "doing the right thing", also a kind of "seeking "JUSTICE. Clearly you are also referring to how frustrating it can be when we want to do the right thing. As I have mentioned, "seeking justice" seems to be the common reason why Mr. Hale over reacted, why people over-reacted by "hacking" Mr. Hale, and why others over-reacted when they felt that hacking Mr. Hale is "justice." As the restaurant owners said, in the orignal article, about one man who over-reacted to CRIME or BAD BEHAVIOR, even if we have a "point", about doing "the right thing" or about JUSTICE, it is important that our "reactions are not over the top." And when we do try to do the right thing, it is important to explain our actions . . . as I have when I often spoke of how "it often takes a great many words to make a simple point in the world today."
Jan 31, 2013 18:31 Report Abuse
If you examine the quote above, it is very clear that both the article (the writer of the article) and the restaurant owner quoted in the article) are talking about one man's over-reaction to crime. The article, and the restaurant owner, are talking about how one man committed a crime because he wanted to punish another crime -- in the same sort of way as the folks who believe it is okay to hack Mr. Hale's website as punishment for his crime.
Jan 30, 2013 00:47 Report Abuse
HERE IS a QUOTE FROM THE ARTICLE "A passerby who spoke English began talking with the foreigner, who said that the cars were blocking the sidewalk for pedestrians and the blind, affecting the movement of himself and other people. “His point isn’t without reason” added another nearby restaurant owner, “but his behavior was a little over the top"
Jan 30, 2013 00:37 Report Abuse
Let's start with THREE QUESTIONS . . . . . . . . . Why do so many people in China not trust their own police and courts and how can this problem be solved? Why do so many people in China think that another crime is good punishment for a first crime and how can that attitude be changed? Do you think the answer to the first two questions is related?
Jan 29, 2013 22:36 Report Abuse
Not likely, I will convince you. But I have written about that previously. But in that earlier post I didn't focus on you, GUEST 7816. I focused on the general problem, here on line, of how it is that people often seem more interested in confrontation and have no real interest in broadening their viewpoint or addressing a real issue. In answer to your earlier question: no I am not the boss here . . . I would just like for us to use our time and intellect better than spending time on gossip about Mr. Hales stupid behavior. Care to comment?
Jan 29, 2013 23:41 Report Abuse
Are you saying, GUEST 7816, that I have angered you because I have tried to "focus" this tread? Do you really think I hijacked the discussion? But the article is about over-reaction to crime. Yes?Have I really changed the focus? Or have I been very focused on exactly what the writer of the article was focused on? Haven't I been focused on exactly the point the restaurant owner made? Again, I would appreciate a well directed reply. If you think I am wrong please explain. But no more accusation or comments about the length of my post. I think it is pretty clear that I have simply been very patiently tryig to keep the discussion focused on the issue referred to in the ARTICLE, not on Mr. Hale.
Jan 30, 2013 00:35 Report Abuse
I SIMPLY WANT TO FOCUS THE DISCUSSION ON REAL ISSUES AND STOP ALL THE ARGUMENT ABOUT MR. HALE. If you think my points are wrong, just explain why. If you did that, I would get my wish -- we would have a real discussion about a BIG ISSUE, rather than a discussion about gossip and politics and foreigners vs Chinese. AND, you would get your wish and I would not feel the need to continuously, patiently, repeatedly make the same points. If you addressed my points why would I repeat myself? SO, please stop attacking the length of my posts and focus.
Jan 29, 2013 22:35 Report Abuse
No, this is a thread about an example of a man who thought that crime is the solution to a crime. But, as I have mentioned again and again without response from you, GUEST 7816, the real ISSUE (which is about over-reaction to crime, according to the Article) but the real issue has been lost in comments about Mr. Hale. You yourself, said you wanted to know what happened to Mr. Hale. Well, aren't you confused about JUSTICE IN THIS ONE CASE because you don't trust the ENTIRE JUSTICE SYSTEM? I would appreciate a comment focused on the topic, not more defence of how people are interested in Mr. Hale.
Jan 29, 2013 23:44 Report Abuse
Why do you folks, you three in particular, seem to doubt my motivations. Maybe that says something about your motivations. Rather than bash my motivations perhaps you might actually, finally make a comment about the points I have made. If you did that, why would I feel the need to be so persistent and patient.
Jan 29, 2013 22:31 Report Abuse
HERE IS THAT SAME QUOTE FROM THE ARTICLE "A passerby who spoke English began talking with the foreigner, who said that the cars were blocking the sidewalk for pedestrians and the blind, affecting the movement of himself and other people. “His point isn’t without reason” added another nearby restaurant owner, “but his behavior was a little over the top.” It seems very clear that the writer and the restaraunt owner knew that the issue was bigger than Mr. Hale. Right? The article is about a man who over-reacted to bad behavior or a crime (probably because he doesn't trust the justice system). The restaurant owner says he understands Mr. Hale's frustration, that "his point isn't without reason." So, why do you think the article is about Mr. Hale? And why do you insit that we should spend so much time discussing Mr. Hale? And why do you attack me when I AGREE WITH THE WRITER -- The issue here is bigger than Mr. Hale. And why do you attack me when the restaurant owner implies the very same point I made: PEOPLE OFTEN OVER-REACT TO A CRIME BY COMMITTING ANOTHER CRIME (and ACCORDING TO THE RESTAURANT OWNER their "point is not without reason") when they don't trust the justice system? Could you please explain.
Jan 30, 2013 00:19 Report Abuse
Guest 7816, Lagos, MEIMEI, et all . . . why are you guys, some of you rather rudely, the other more politely writing so much about the length of my posts. But not one of you have commented on the points I have made? I made every point I wish to say in my first post . . . and you never commented and often replied rudely, so I tried again. And I tried again, and again. Some of you have responded a lot but nothing on point. Others have not acted this way.
Jan 29, 2013 22:19 Report Abuse
HERE IS A QUOTE FROM THE ARTICLE: "A passerby who spoke English began talking with the foreigner, who said that the cars were blocking the sidewalk for pedestrians and the blind, affecting the movement of himself and other people. “His point isn’t without reason” added another nearby restaurant owner, “but his behavior was a little over the top.
Jan 30, 2013 00:03 Report Abuse
What is the "issue with James Hale"? Isn' the ISSUE about CRIME and how Mr. Hale thought it was okay to commit CRIME to punish what he thought was a CRIME?. DO you think people would act this way so often if China had a mature justice system? Or is this thread only about bad behavior from foreigners? And aren't my questions about crime? Personally, I have tried really hard to avoid any gossip about Mr. Hale. Is Mr. Hale the issue? Is the story just about commenting on foreigners? Please explain.
Jan 30, 2013 00:07 Report Abuse
I find it quite intriguing that so many people will go to such lengths to discuss this matter which is in the big picture of the world a rather trivial matter. All owners of cars in large urban towns and city's park illegally its a fact of life regardless of the country. These cars however will eventually be moved either by the owners themselves in due course or by the authorities and then the consequences this brings to the owner if the vehicle is moved by the authorities. Deliberately damaging a car is a mindless act of vandalism and should be treated as such. Taking the law into your own hands is unacceptable in any country. As a foot note were the cars parked illegally ? They were on the footpath but that does not automatically make it illegal parking. Mindless vandalism however is illegal.
Jan 28, 2013 11:09 Report Abuse
Exactly . . . there are illegal parkers everywhere, and people who over-react everywhere. The point I was hoping to make is that, here in China, because the RULE OF LAW is poorly empowered, normal citizens do not trust their own justice system and so time and resources are wasted turnng an individual incident into a BIG DISCUSSION: the people want justice but they know justice in China is often secondary to political or cultural goals, to personal relationships, or to private deals, etc and so the people look for other means of attaining justice -- not realizing that this is also a form of 'lawlessness' . . . and because the small/normal/common incident become a BIG DISCUSSION people claim it is a BIG ISSUE . . . while the really big issue gets overlook. These excessive, angry discussions,these claims that revenge in the form of another crime are "justice, these facts demonstrate a failure to learn, a failure to 'generalize', and an unwillingness to look for real causes - but I understand why that happens in China and I accept that change will comes slowly. But it is the foreigners who allow themsleve to be drawn into online character bashing and narrowly focused discussions that I find more troubling. I believe that foreigners, invited to work in China as a part of China's development policy - a policy of "learning from the west", could do much more to instill a bit of useful generalization into these discussions. Not the sort of generalization that creates stereotypes . . . but the sort of generalization where-by a 'lesson is learned' and need not be taught again. It seems quite clear to me, that placing responsibility for policing and justice where it belongs would allow normal citizens to avoid taking the law into their own handsTHis would also, truly I believe it would, put an end to so much of this pickering and name calling over an individual crime. I often give the example of people crossing the street here in China: it seems to me that so many people are 'learning' the lesson of 'crossing-the-street' each time they cross a street, as if it is a different experience, rather than applying a few generalized safe practices to the common task of crossing the street (regardless of whether a cross walk is used or not). Crossing a street is the same task, generally speaking, no matter if it is a Chinese street, in Pudong or Beijing, or a street in France, or a street in America. One of the root causes for this failure to apply general rules, it does seem to me, results from a society that pits pedstrians against vehicular traffic - where competition and "beating the traffic" is the rule; whereas, I think, most foreigners see themselves, pedestrian or driver, as PART of the traffic, involved in shared experience: perhaps it is a simple matter of cooperation vs competition; a simple matter of cohesion in the society as compared to a society where "everyone is an emperor", a society where lack of universal concepts/ideas creates less cohesion(by universlized concepts I mean such concept as the RULE OF LAW and the idea that all people are generally the same).
Jan 28, 2013 12:52 Report Abuse
And perhaps you have noticed how all this failure to do useful learning through generalization causes people here to be hugely distracted by little things - such as the way people have become distracted over the details of Mr. Hale's 'case', rather then focusing on the bigger matters involved. I have worked as an English teacher and I eventually twigged to how it is that my Chinese students believe that REMEMBERING = LEARNING and believe that STUDY = LEARN ("remembering" is about the past, and can be a useful basis for generalization if such critical thought is permitted; "studying" is a conscious choice; "learning" is something we do everyday, and can not avoid doing, when we open our eyes). LEARNING is often restricted by an over-emphasis on REMEMBERING: REMEMBERING the teacher's words rather than LEARNING by internalizing concepts; or by REMEMBERING what your culture says you should do rather than LEARNING from your own imaginative assessments and individual choices. I came to see how my Chinese students did not seem to notice that ever mistake, with an article for example ("the", "a", "an"), is not a different MISTAKE but another EXAMPLE of a larger issue - focus on the issue not the examples. That is that sort of viewpoint which I hoped to bring to this discussion about Mr. Hale -- the outcome of his behavior, as is the angry debate that has ensued (repleat with horrible insults and suggestions of vigilante vengence), is merely an example of a larger issue, a more general issue. And perhaps by focusing on that issue we could all make better use of our time and intellects and be far more forgiving of each other. LOL - And I wouldn't feel inclined to write so much -- "in this world where it can take a great many words to make a simple point."
Jan 28, 2013 16:13 Report Abuse
I seems so obvious, to me, and I suspect you agree, how it is that there needs to be a lot more clear headed thinking and patience when discussing these matters. People, here online especially, are so quick these days to intentionally misunderstand each other, to make small issues into BIG DISCUSSION filled with politics, and so filled with enthusiasm for confrontation . . . and, as a result, real issues never get any air-time. It's a bit saddening, really . . . and unbecoming of us all. And it sets my teeth on edge when I hear people who are righfully outraged by one crime who then turn around and - seeming to ignore their own words, they then support revenge in the form of another crime, and call that "justice". LOL, it's as though people have a kind of split personality. And, if you think about it, that is the case, metaphorically speaking -- the immature justice system here pits the normal outrage people feel -- their need for justice, against the options available to them when they seek for a target at which to aim their outrage, that outrage which was the source of their anger in the first place. But when you options are limited people become involved in the, understandable, but rather unattractive behavior that we see in these discussion.
Jan 28, 2013 16:13 Report Abuse
The result is so often contradictory -- crime as justice for crime. I certainly feel that the causes for this contradiction are very simple and quite obvious; and that, that unwillingness or inability to address root causes, coupled with the prevailing atmospere on the internet, which adds to the FALSE COMPLEXITY, results in what seems like a huge waste of intellect and resource; and results in what, to my eye, looks like a horribly misguided approach to finding solutions. Then again, my real mistake here might be in thinking that, although a bit of venting is normal, "finding solutions" is the highest purpose which brings people to discussion on social issues. In any case, I constantly ask myself why it is that people are so willing to ignore each other and their own words, to - in a manner of speaking, purposefully turn off their listening and self appraisal. I personally think what we fail to see in these insult ridden discussion is clear, and perhaps sad, evidence of our weak understanding regarding our shared human nature, regardless of our culture or upbringing; and I feel this hostility and lack of real listening is also an exacerbated symptom of internet use, of the anonymity of internet use -- allowing for less responsibilty, which is taken advantage of, to negative effect, when people focus on "uploading identity," and when people focus on taking sides rather than being keen observers, and when people focus on details more-so than factors.
Jan 28, 2013 16:30 Report Abuse
In the future I will be happy to continue this discussion with any Chinese person, who may have difficulty understanding. And I would be happy to continue discussing this with any foreigner who wishes to behave maturely.
Jan 27, 2013 23:21 Report Abuse
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