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Lagos . . . did you see what he wrote, I mean "guest 7816" I have asked hinm too, sir, just as I asked you above: please make a comment on the points i have made and stop attacking me. But he has never responded to what he calls the "some point" I am trying to make. Nor does he seem to know that the points I have made are shared by many of the leaders of China. GOSH, it is all over the news about how the new leaders of China what to clean up their justice system and remove corruption. And isn't it a fact that a huge number of the people posting on this topic are confused and frustrated because they think Mr. Hale has escaped justice because of corruption. And isn't it a likely fact that many of the cars parked on the sidewalk were parked illegally and yet nothing was done because of corruption. I mean, really, guys . . . a little bit of thinking here would help you see what the real issue is. And what facts does he, GUEST 7816, expect he will get on the internet on a comments page? Unless there is a post placed here by one of the police officers or court official involved or unless Mr. Hale posts here . . . what facts will there be. Anything posted here about the details of Mr. Hale's incident are going to be exactly like what has been posted here gossip or hearsay. I simple thought we could make better us of our time and so I have been very diligent and perservering. You fellows seem to prefer not to gie me the benifit of you doubt and see to prefer to ignore what I have siad in favour of commenting on the length of my posts.
Jan 29, 2013 21:19 Report Abuse
Lagos, I would really appreciated if you would ask Guest 7816 to respond to my comments. Because if you don't all that has happened here tonight, is that he has 'hijacked" your polite criticism to offer a few more rude comments of his own. It's up to you , my friend, but it is good to take responsibility and to associated yourself with whom you choose rather than allowing others to associate themselves with you for their own purposes. I mean, you do see what he did, yes? He piggybacked on your polite comment so as to continue his own bashing. And while doing that accused me of attacking him. AND stil, and still . . . never addressed a single comment I have made.
Jan 29, 2013 21:28 Report Abuse
No thanks, I will not. It's not my duty to repeat what you have done so much, yourself.
Jan 29, 2013 21:41 Report Abuse
I understand that insults are quite petty and I was against MeiMei for taking the subject matter off topic. But you have also twisted the original topic and made it something boring. I understand your rebuttal when they insult you, but you don't have to make 5posts to do so. You could simple say, you are ignorant and look over my previous postings. You don't have to beat MeiMei to death. It would be more effective and wouldn't make people like myself have to go off topic because I haven't been on in a couple of days and 100new posts are added and 90 of those are of you. I agree with things that you say but I can't bring myself to continue re-reading something that has been on 100 times. In regards to not having faith in people, I do and I don't and I am honestly not going to reread your 200posts to find out what you mean. I understand persistence, but you have me agreeing with the people I originally, when i first started commenting, was against, on topics that aren't related to their initial posts.
Jan 31, 2013 15:39 Report Abuse
Solhace, you might take this as criticism or whatnot, but after you replied, you did repeat and somewhat summarized your points which allowed me to respond now. I agree that there isn't aspects of where law is upheld in China. It's not standardized and law can change from person to person on who enforces it. I China is old with a lot of history. I don't know if it is our job as non indigenous people to 'educate or enforce' 'rule of law'. I live hear and what i might think makes China a better place might not make it a better place for Chinese. I originally started posting because i disagreed with how off topic the discussion came, and now I feel even more lost.... So I will scroll the next 90posts if time allows and see if I want to continue to respond.
Jan 31, 2013 15:52 Report Abuse
It is the face of things, people, and ideas that we look at not the substance which often lies out of sight. As much as we might like to avoid such a reality, this Mr. Hale guy is probably, generally, mostly like any one of us. I guess that is why, in any important context it is never enough to defend yourself by saying "I would never do that." With very little difference we are all of us capable of the actions of any of us. I guess that fact is the reason behind the saying "there but for the grace of god go I" - although I prefer to keep god out of the equation.
Jan 27, 2013 20:59 Report Abuse
My experience has taught me that when you are discussing an issue, such as why do Chinese refer to "foreigners" as they do . . . look at how all people are similiar, in this case similiar in the use of the word "foreigner". The differences that are left over, after you accept that all people are generally the same, will be very small and often very easily explained - according to the best science I know, the average difference possible between any two people, should be about .01 percent. Another point I try to never forget is that it can be very unpopular to focus on simple ideas. So, you must make your choice about how you wish to use your intellect. Do you want to be popular and 'right' according to current views or do you want to be logical and factual and in this way find versions of ideas that will last and stand the test of time? Everything is a choice. The words of other people can be very hurtful and very frustrating when you know that they are not really thinking but only reacting. I guess it is important to have a thick skin. Good luck
Jan 27, 2013 17:48 Report Abuse
In my opinion, it is this "once-and-for-all" sort of thinking that we westerners should (lol) be helping 'teach' to the local culture; rather than getting involved in the BIG DISCUSSIONS about individual cases such as Mr. Hale. We are under-cutting our own value and we are selling out on the good lessons our Mom and Dad taught us. ANd one day, as the Chinese grow more and more worldly, they might look back and say "hey, you folks knew better but you didn't do better." Maybe that matters to some, maybe not - we each make our choice. But I know that the best thinkers in China would prefer that we did better justice to the designation "foreign expert" and the good lessons of our western Moms and Dads. Ciao
Jan 26, 2013 22:15 Report Abuse
i very like what you have put on here, i hope to use this in my class some time.
Jan 27, 2013 02:31 Report Abuse
Well, good. I'm glad . . . my advice is always to try and keep your thoughts on these issues as simple as possible. But, it is also important to remember that many people have difficulty seeing just how simple the world is. It can and VERY OFTEN does take a lot of words to place focus on simple ideas. The world of ideas can be a very complex place if you let it become complex. Simple ideas often seem to be complex because in our world today so many people want to adjust the simple idea for themselves, to include their own version of the simple idea - everyone wants to own an idea; there are often so many people saying the same thing but they don't really listen to each other. As a result there is a great deal of argument about different VERSIONS OF THE SIMPLE IDEA -- people arguing about whose expression of the simple idea to accept. And, so, many people forget that when we open our mouths to speak and when we decide to write it is OUR CHOICE to focus on how we are the same or to focus on how we can make ourselves seem different. Many, perhaps most of the differences we think we see in the world are actually created by ourselves through the use of language - nd the use of language for the sake of argument is very much responsible for all the differences we think we see in the world. The world, to a very great extent is actually created by ideas, on of the most negatively productive ideas we have is the idea of culture. I mean, I love my culture, and I hope that I respect other cultures, but I recognize that my culture, anyone's culture can be used to create differences which people then love to argue about. In the modern world culture has become a product, with profits and people who claim to own the culture/product. And because everyone wants to put forward their own version of simple ideas, or of a culture, it can be very difficult to remove all the FALSE DIFFERENCES and get down to the simple facts and simple logic. Especially on the internet it can be difficult to make a simple point because so many people actually enjoy confrontation. And so many people join discussions on the internet because they want to create an identity for themselves, they want to 'upload an identity' rather than actually look for and discuss good, positive, useful solutions to problems. Thus, the difference between a BIG issue and a LITTLE issue disappears in the midst of all the BIG DISCUSSION. The difference between invention and innovation is often lost in the modern world and the difference between a big issue and a big discussion is often lost. This happens everywhere in the world, but especially here in China where standards. logic, the RULE OF LAW - and very often facts, are secondary to LOCAL CULTURE and POLITICAL IDEOLOGIES. But, to be fair, we in the west we also went through a process of learning to, most of the time, place universal ideas and concepts higher than culture and higher than the version of an idea that any one person might like best.
Jan 27, 2013 17:36 Report Abuse
To continue. In Chinese culture there is a great importance placed on family duty - Children 'should' look after their parents (in fact, however, the National Chinese Government is considering enacting laws that will strengthen the modality of these policies from "should" to "must -- there is talk of laws that will require children to visit their parents and there are already policies which allow ( a "should modaity"), but don't insist (a "must" modality), that if the parents can't pay their bills the children could be sued). As a result of this filial duty in China, Chinese people often suggest that we westerners are not so responsible to our parents; the Chinese believe we westerners have much less cultural pressure to look after our parents. But, the point they miss is that, in western cultures, children "MUST" look after their parents. And we do so by agreeing, with our legislation, that we will accept being forced to pay taxes that result in old age security pensions and high quality government institutions for the elderly, and free medical care in many cases and so on. We create legislation which requires the we all "must" contribute to the upkeep of our elderly. Ther is no "should" about it. Now, of course the system we use in the west is a long way from perfect and is showing cracks for the same reasons as here in China, fewer and fewer young people working: fewer young people, and increases in life expectancy, in the west means a shrinking tax base; fewer young people, and increasing life expectancy, in China means one child looking after upwards of six parents/grandparents. And, of course, both 'systems' are actually self-serving methods for us to look after ourselves - we all get old, it is hoped, 'knock on wood. But the point I want to make here is how it is that Chinese people regularly get their thinking backwards; because we don't look after our elderly in the same way as they do , we don't have cultural "shoulds" about children caring for parents, the Chinese are blind to the RULE OF LAW "musts" in western countries that help secure the lifestyle of our elderly. They, the Chinese, don't see that those RULE OF LAW "musts express our love for our parents - (although I am certain the 'out-of-sight out-of-mind' results from over reliance on nursing homes in the west does have negative effects). But, for the purposes of this post, I wish to point out how the RULE of LAW tends to deal with a problem in a much more 'once-and-for-all manner . . . and certainly does not leave the issue (as Guest 7816 might confusingly have suggested) open for the "case by case, based on variables" sort of solutions required of individual families in China where there is no RULE OF LAW. Well, I wanted to say that. having said it, I hope you will, both, pardon me for another lengthy post and respect me for my perseverance here in a world "where it can be very difficult to make a simple point."
Jan 26, 2013 22:04 Report Abuse
Before I put my keyboard to bed tonight, I would like to give one more example of how important RULE OF LAW is. And with this example, I also hope to illustrate how it is that, and how common it is that, people get their logic backwards even though it might seem they have not. In on of my first posts on this topic, I spoke of how in a country that accepts the RULE of LAW, laws are applied using the modal value "MUST" where as here in China, laws and culture are applied using the modal value "should" -- incidentally, this is one of the fundamental reasons why contracts between western and Chinese entities become so confused: if a contract or a law is founded upon the modal value "should" it is only a suggestion, not a law. And using discussions of translation does not change this fact.
Jan 26, 2013 22:04 Report Abuse
But, you are bang on about how it is that the actions of one foreigner here, in China, reflects poorly on us all. Are you familiar with the term, in pyschology, "projecting." This terms refers to how it is that we often project our ideas and beliefs onto others (ahahaha, such is what I think happens online when some accuse others of the sort of things I have been accused of when in fact they themselves are guilty of that which they accuse HMMMM?????). Well, in any case . . . .China is a homogenous society and the political ideologies in China are such that all Chinese are, by and large, responsible for everything Chinese - all the people own all the assets and successes and failures of all the people. Or perhaps it is better to express this the other way around: Chinese individuals have very little individual responsible. This shared responsiblity or shared lack of responsibility is one of the basic tenants of communism. And, I suspect, that because the Chinese have this 'idea' in their culture they project the same sort of responsibility onto foreigners. I'm specualting . . . but my sense is that there is truth to this. From the other perspective, I know that because of this jointly held responsibility in China, many foreigners I encounter feel it is correct to hold every Chinese person, in China, accountable for all the actions/decisions of every Chinese in China. In a sense, what these individuals are suggesting is "okay, so you want to be communist, that's okay, but then you are all responsible for everything and you have no reason to use the 'escape' of Individual Responsibility unless you allow Individual Freedom." I'm not sure I agree, but I do get the logic.
Jan 26, 2013 21:16 Report Abuse
And, I suspect, the Chinese over-use the word foreigner - aside from the laziness of such use, they do it because of the tradional belief, held by Chinese, that every where a Chinese person is they are "under a Chinese sun"; thus, everywhere a Chinese person is becomes China. And, sadly, this notion of the "the CHinese sun, is a part of the political dogma of China today. Who knows if my explanation is accurate, but it fits what we know of the culture and politics and history of China.
Jan 26, 2013 21:02 Report Abuse
But, I'll tell you a story (an apographal tale): one day, two Chinese guys were sitting on a park bench in Australia, or let's make it Britain . . . and a fine looking blond haired, blue eyed lass went walking by. What did the Chinese guys call her? They referred to her as "beautiful foreigner." But they were the Foreigners. So, yes, you are right, IT IS LAZY THINKING FOR CHINESE TO REFER TO ALL FOREIGNERS AS FOREIGNER - but they, the Chinese, will do that in other countries to. And so, by remembering that, we can see what might be the real reasons for that "lazy thinking" and we might see the difference between what Chinese people do and real prejudism. In the west, very often, we use derrogatory names as a result of prejudice - not alway but very often; but very often the reason is simply bad education of that the 'prejudiced' person is naive. It is important to remember, that speaking hatefull about another persons race or ethnicity is not a crime in the West unless the person doig this has had an opportunity to learn not to be prejudiced. However, in China the situation is bit different because most CHiese have not had an opportunity to learn about prejudicim -- which is quite ironic considerng how Chinese hitory books and political dogma often refer to prejudisim agains the Chinese. But, to continue, in the west we live in heterogeneous cultures while being aware that we live in a heterogeneous world -- the micro matches the macro. But in China, the Chinese live in a homogeneous culture whioh seems to cause them to overlook, downplay, or forget, that they live in a heterogeneous world -- the micro overwhelms the macro. The problem, I am assuming, is related to, not little or no education but, is related to education of the wrong sort, a very weak tradition of criticism, and is related to poiltical dogma which does not allow western concepts like "political correctness' to thrive. Think of the toothpaste, brand named "Darly" or is it "Darling", packaged and sold using a darkskinnedd chap with white teeth to suggest that the tootpaste will give you the white teeth of a 'darky.'
Jan 26, 2013 20:56 Report Abuse
why is it that when, every time some one did some thing wrong in china, people report its a foreigner! ! why not say it was a man or a woman or better still why not say the country he or she is from, as saying a foreigner is a bit of a generalizations of who the person was, if you are in Australia, England, USA we never say foreigner, did this or that, we say a Chinese or Japaneses person or some Asian person, to say a foreigner is giving a bad name to all of the GOOD foreigner in china this is not right, and why is it that only china have BAD names in Chinese for foreigners, and other countries don't, we just say what is fact where they are from not generalize, who they are. in my country we never say it was a a Chinese when it was a man from the moon, if it was a Japaneses we say it was a Japaneses man, if we know where he is from if not we will say Asian person, who the person is or from then say it then people like me that is not from the same country as this person scratch cars, as the way it seem your report when you use the word foreigner its looks like all foreigners are going about china doing bad things as one foreigner did.
Jan 26, 2013 16:33 Report Abuse
Oooh, I don't know . . . In the west, we have lots of nasty words for people of other races and ethnicities - "chink" and "jap" and "slavs" and "niggers"; and even derogatory names for people from our own countries and of the same ethnicities -- 'white folks' call other 'folks folks' such things as "rednecks", and "newfies", and "bluenosers", and "bumkins", and "hicks", and "bohos" and and "hobos" and there are slurs of gender, and slurs for disabled people. And a lot of this is merelly the changing tides of Political Correctness. I mean Ioften here one African American refer to another African American as "nigger" -- but it seem to be an insult if a non-African Amercan uses the word "nigger." Everyone feel they own their fulture and other, not of their culture must follow the rules made by the 'owners' of the culture. However, indeed Ranchy, in the west, in 'polite society' we try to refer to other people by less insulting terms, taking into account what those other people would like us to call them -- but that too chances according to what is politically correct: is it now politic to say "handicapped" or "disabled"; is it better to say "black" or "african american/brit/canadian/french" (LOL, or would that be "african frog", to use the derrogatory name for the French people).
Jan 26, 2013 20:47 Report Abuse
Wow, solhacehabravida, just wow! If anything you have a reputation if bringing it nomatter what. Oh and as for the "I didn't get the memo" remark, I simply meant that I wasn't aware that YOU were appointed to represent all foreigners with this. But James Hale still resides in China and is in fact, very active on Dalianxpat.org as we talk here. His recent words show no fear, remorse, or concern for any legal or other issue he could and should be facing as a result of what he is being accused of in this article alone. This means that either a miracle happened and he was acquitted of all said crimes throughout the worldwide web, Chinese and Western, which would make this article and all herein invalid, or he pulled off one of the finest Laowai stunts ever by scraping cars and then convincing the authorities that it was not a big deal worth more. Either way, very interesting! As for slander, libel, and anything regarding defamation of character, I have two replies, here is China and echinacities seems to ignore it.
Jan 25, 2013 22:50 Report Abuse
GUEST 7816 wrote "His recent words show no fear, remorse, or concern for any legal or other issue he could and should be facing as a result of what he is being accused of in this article alone. This means that either a miracle happened and he was acquitted of all said crimes throughout the worldwide web, Chinese and Western, which would make this article and all herein invalid, or he pulled off one of the finest Laowai stunts ever by scraping cars and then convincing the authorities that it was not a big deal worth more. Either way, very interesting! As for slander, libel, and anything regarding defamation of character, I have two replies, here is China and echinacities seems to ignore it. " . . . . My heaven, it is almost laughable - it wwould be if the matter wasn't so serious, how it is that GUEST 7816 doesn't seem to notice that his/her very own comments actually describe what happens when the RULE OF LAW is not empowered. Okay, now GUEST 7816, these, your comments are "ridiculous", to quote rgillette10@yahoo.com (persoanlly I hate to use such "purple prose and to attack individuals as he/she did) I use his/her word only for purposes of logic, not so as to inflame the discussion furhter. Dear GUST 7816, your own words, once agin, actally support my contention, and the obvious fact - known far and wide to any one who actually cares about the matter, that the real problem here is the lack of RULE BY LAW in China.
Jan 26, 2013 19:23 Report Abuse
But, hey . . . you are getting "thumbs up" as well. I guess being popular is all that matters. But, seriously, admit it, you're actually happy to have me to vent at, yes? But, I really wish, you would just take amoment to look at the simple facts.
Jan 26, 2013 19:25 Report Abuse
And I will repeat, because it does take a lot of words to make simple point in the world today YOUR WORDS ACTUAL DESCRIBE PERFECTLY WHY IT IS THAT PEOPLE SO VERY OFTEN MAKE SUCH A BIG DISCUSSION WITHOUT ACTUALLY DOING ANYTHING PRODUCTIVE, in China. This happens -- AND YOUR OWN WORDS SUPPORT MY POINT (A POINT KNOW FAR AND WIDE) THAT CHINA SUFFERS FROM INADEQUATE EMPLOWERMENT OF RULE BY LAW.
Jan 26, 2013 19:33 Report Abuse
GUEST 7816 wrote: "I simply meant that I wasn't aware that YOU were appointed to represent all foreigners with this." There is no way that you could have, logically, taken from my words that I was appointing myself "to reprsent all foreigners." I very clearly spoke of the facts: that if you are working in China, you have a Z Visa which gives you the designation "Foreign Expert". This is the case because all of us foreigners working in China are here as a part of China' policy of "opening up and learning from the West." Just a side bar - isn't it a shame that so many of them are learning that we Westerners are also so cabable of ignoring facts and logic so that we can simple come on line and vent. How will they ever learn the manners of CRITICAL THOUGHT that founded the Renaisance and the Enlightenment in Western Culture - skills that the CHinese themselves constantly talk about as neccessary for China's development? How will they learn hose skills from us, if we continue to use the internet to vent and continue to completely ignore basic facts and logic. If I was the Chinese I would be saying to so many foreigners writing online "physician heal thyself." Truly, Guest 7816, there is no way you caould have, logically, taken from my words that I was appointing myself "to reprsent all foreingers." I pointed to the facts of how it is that we are invited here as part of the National CHinese Government's policy of "learning from the West." It is only a happy coincidence that our personal goals mesh, if they do, with China's opening up policy. And I very clearly wrote that we each must make up our mind as to what that means to us. Did you really read my word, GUEST 7816? If you did then you must have overlooked how it is that I specific asked for consideration for the length of my posts because, as I said, it can take so many words to make a simple point in the world today - most especially here online where common motivations often run to "uploading identity" and finding someone to vent at.
Jan 26, 2013 19:43 Report Abuse
Why don't you quote me, GUEST 7816, and then refer directly and unemotionally to what I have written. Please, try that. I am an exceedingly patient individual. And if progress is being made, I will be the first person to admit I am wrong, if I am. But, GUEST 7816, you are misquoting me and, from my persepective, you are intentionally misunderstanding me. I suspect you are actually happy to have me to vent at. I think that is a sorry state of affairs. But to each his own.
Jan 26, 2013 19:50 Report Abuse
GUEST 7816 wrote: "This means that either a miracle happened and he was acquitted of all said crimes throughout the worldwide web, Chinese and Western, which would make this article and all herein invalid." I HAVE A QUESTION: could you please explain to me how "this article and all herein" would be rendered invalid if the "miracle" you mentioned happened." I am asking a real question here. I am confused.
Jan 26, 2013 20:05 Report Abuse
And related to that last quote "This means that either a miracle happened and he was acquitted of all said crimes throughout the worldwide web, Chinese and Western, which would make this article and all herein invalid," YOU USED TO WORD "either" but you didn't offer an "OR" . . . you spoke only of the "Miracle"
Jan 26, 2013 20:07 Report Abuse
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