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gouxiong

To Guest2301262: Interesting. I to certain agree with you about your ghost term theory but I apparently missed the point where you jumped to: 'laowai is actually an offense' part. You are certainly right saying that through out the Asian countries history (China, Korea and Japan for this sake) foreigners were all seen as uncivilized barbarians. Nevertheless it developed and despite of the fact that in majority of the countries being different or outsider is no winner so I do not think it's worse in China. Coming then to the term lao (老) - I am certainly not a linguist but I do not think you can simply translate it as 'old' in the English meaning of this word. I think in Chinese this term covers broader meaning than just old in age or old in old friend expression. In Chinese it also includes the respect and therefore you may address the person named Wang who deserves the respect as lao Wang and the person who deserves even more respect will address this person Wang as xiao (小) Wang. Another example is for instance a tiger which was in the past quite feared animal - it's called lao hu (老虎)- (well we have also 老鼠 and I really do not know if this is connected with respect towards mouse to be totally frank). I want to say that believing that lao wai is an offense sounds a bit strange and almost certainly is wrong. In some Slavic languages (Russian, Czech, Slovak and Polish for instance) the word for German person means exactly 'a person who cannot speak' or 'dumb person'. But it's not meant as an offense - it developed historically as Slavic tribes were pushing Germanic tribes in the 4-5 century and it was a description for a non Slavic person (as at that time all Slavic languages were mutually almost fully understandable - in contrast to Germanic or Gaelic ones but Celts disappeared from Slavic countries vicinity so the term stayed to describe just Germans).

Feb 28, 2015 11:20 Report Abuse

Guest2301262

@guoxiong That was why I said the trick lied in the combination, or the context it was used. For example, while old friends and laowai (old outsider) refer to the long term nature of a relationship between the speaker and the person s/he was referring to, the 'old' in old trees (老樹), old cat (老貓), old people (老人)...etc. refers to the physical age of an object/animal. A historical perspective of how chinese view foreigners or outsiders lets anyone see through the insidious part of this laowai term as I have also said in my post. That being said, even without having any knowledge of chinese history, most seasoned expat (i.e. rookies, wide-eye pollyannas excluded) in mainland china can testify the animosity plenty of mainlanders have against foreigners.

Feb 28, 2015 16:11 Report Abuse

gouxiong

Dear Guest2301262, Now I am a bit lost - if I did not miss the meaning of your comment so your point was that laowai is derogatory term, continued with a statement which country in the world calls foreigners outsiders. Later you added that it's common knowledge that plenty of Chinese have animosity towards foreigners. What concerned of the first one - that laowai is derogatory term I opposed and tried to provide explanation for that. What concerns of your latest statement so you are certainly correct in the sense of number. China is simply big and if, for sake of example, 1% of population hates foreigners so it's at least 13,000,000 people - that's certainly a lot. But unless you are not terribly unlucky so it still means that it's just one among 100 persons you meet ...That would not sound that bad. I am here for several years and I cannot confirm your experience - I do not think that majority or even big part of Chinese would show any hatred towards me or other foreigners. I would say just opposite - my experience is more from neutral to positive with few exceptions only... May be you just had bad luck. Or may be it's connected with the mindset - it's of course everyone's own choice to select to understand completely neutral term laowai as an offense (I am not saying it's your case!) but as per my opinion it's not exactly the best way how to make own time spent in China enjoyable - and hard to blame anybody else for that ...

Mar 02, 2015 14:47 Report Abuse

Guest2301262

Your 1% example is invalid because anyone with a background of chinese history knows about the wars china had with foreigner powers and that national resentment of foreigner is well known in chinese history. Also the experience of the majority of expats in china goes against yours which means a good chance that you are lying to win an arguement, or you 'forget' to mention your ethnic origin. The expats I am talking about have been in china for more than two decades. Your experience can be a result of your having an oriental origin. As some here has pointed out, another wumao. All your bruised ego could say when its rational faculties failed was a lame 'your experience must be bad here' uttering which was irrelevant to the topic of dicussion, compromising your intergrity until there was nothing left. LOL

Mar 02, 2015 18:40 Report Abuse

jixiang

To be fair, the Chinese did not build the great wall of China because they wanted to isolated themselves, but rather because they had to defend themselves from the Mongols and the other nomadic peoples to the North who were aggressive and warlike. The fact that the Mongols and later the Manchu conquered China shows that they were right. China's other borders to the South and West had not Great Wall.

Mar 02, 2015 21:49 Report Abuse

Guest2301262

@jixiang That's what I said in my very first comment on the great wall --- that the wall was built against invasion from savages (from the viewpoint of chinese). It wasn't built to be a money-making tourist attraction for local and foreign tourists 2000+ years AGO (or later for that matter) to enjoy a super panoramic view of the neighborhood scenary. LOL

Mar 03, 2015 12:40 Report Abuse

jixiang

Yes, but you make it sound like the Chinese built the Wall because they saw any outsiders as "savages" as a result of xenophobia. This may be true, but building the Great Wall was a rational reaction to a military threat. The fact is that in the past China, for geographic reasons, was not generally in direct contact with other advanced civilizations, but only with rather backward and marginal peoples. Even their contact with Indian culture was indirect although fruitful.

Mar 03, 2015 15:35 Report Abuse

Guest2301262

I didn't say building those walls was a mistake. I merely pointed out it was for military purposes to keep savages (i.e. to the chinese) out. It was a product of repeated border conflicts in those times and thus a rational decision. As for those attacks launched by those groups the chinese were justified in calling them savages, sure. However, I'm also sure you know enough to read chinese history with a big grain of salt considering how face wanting chinese were and how that influenced THEIR version of what actually happened and why. Short of those historical characters themselves perhaps no one would ever know the real story, including the ordinary citizens of those times and historians who I think would be reasonable to assume, very much wanted to keep their head and body in one piece.

Mar 03, 2015 21:18 Report Abuse

jixiang

Yes, on the other hand consider that until the 15-16th centuries, historians in Europe had to be equally careful, or they might be the ones losing their heads. All historical recollections from the past have to be taken with an equally big grain of salt.

Mar 04, 2015 09:23 Report Abuse

gouxiong

Dear Guest2301262, As you jumped out of the original point I was commenting on your contribution - term laowai - so I assume that this is now clarified and we may close this topic positively - term laowai is not derogatory. What concerns of the new input of yours about big part of Chinese hating foreigners so I really doubt this is true. Historical parallels may not be that relevant because almost all nations and religions have their dark times - some earlier in the history and some later. You probably refer to 19th and early 20th century in China but the whole 20th century in Europe was not exactly a hit from this perspective. I am really sorry for your bad experience which I really do not share (being Caucasian myself as it apparently matters to you ...). Just wish you a bit more positive thinking when approaching your surrounding environment - may be it helps

Mar 04, 2015 10:08 Report Abuse

Guest2301262

@ guoxiong Where did you get the idea I said 'laowai' was not derogatory? Your framing doesn't work. You are using the term positive thinking to over up negative social behaviors. This is one of if not the worst deed a human can do. You just proved your integrity is worthless meaning your point about your ethnic origin is also untrustworthy. This conversation is closed as there is no point for me to converse with someone without integrity.

Mar 04, 2015 12:26 Report Abuse

Guest2301262

@jixiang At large western historians faced far fewer threats as their chinese counterparts, bearing in mind that face wanting was a key chinese attribute. Scientific advancements is a hallmark of the era you mentioned, the era Isaac Newton was born in. Science requires objectivity, this we all know. You see the vast differences last until today --- in the lack of freedom of speech, religion, the tremendous amount of fakes and the scale of corruption going on in china. Same old rotten wine in new (i.e. to mainland chinese) bottles.

Mar 04, 2015 12:39 Report Abuse

jixiang

Quite frankly, I think you are exaggerating the extent of the freedom Westerners enjoyed in the past. It is of course true that democracy historically comes from the West. Having said that, it is a fact that European societies were all autocratic until a few hundred years ago. The change started happening exactly during the period I mentioned (15-16th century). Before that, if you tried to speak out against the church or Christianity, you could expect a horrible death on the stake. And all the way until the 19th century, there was no freedom of speech like we understand it nowadays. I wouldn't exaggerate the importance of the question of "face" either. The issue isn't face, it's the fact that when those in power have the possibility to silence dissent, they tend to do so.

Mar 10, 2015 17:41 Report Abuse

kuntmans

I thought it was an interesting read. Really informative and a bit of light entertainment. I've learned a lot about foreigners from this website. Long may it continue!

Feb 20, 2015 10:10 Report Abuse

Nessquick

I haven't learned here nothing new, all I knew from real life. but still it is BS. for who it is writen ?

Feb 24, 2015 00:04 Report Abuse

Chairman_Cow

Another rubbish article written by someone who has 0 experience with foreigners. Echinacities is quickly becoming an "us" vs "them" website, always trying to make foreigners look different. I can tell you, as I write this post I'm back in Australia on holidays and I'm happy to be with us "foreigners". Chinese think they know everything about the west. They know jack shit. I'm only going back to China for the business I have there.

Feb 17, 2015 06:23 Report Abuse

Chairman_Cow

You're the dick with your head in the clouds. Idiot.

Mar 01, 2015 05:49 Report Abuse

puffudder

Before commenting on this "leading" article, be aware that you are being monitored. Everything you infer, insinuate, or illuminate is subject to the emotionally unbalanced interpretation of Chinese envy and prejudice. So, be it the differences in personal cleanliness, (lack of) consideration of others, greed, American obsession, sleeping on the job, forward thinking (planning ahead), copying, abysmal table manners or anything else for that matter, check and recheck your comment before posting.

Feb 17, 2015 03:09 Report Abuse