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Meimei too tired... and you are going on and on about something people not reading. Have a look at:http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2013-01/14/content_16115799.htm When you read that you surely see how serious this situation is with this guy yet you try to make small of it.
Jan 22, 2013 21:51 Report Abuse
I have never said this is a BIG thing or a SMALL thing. My questions is: do you understand why this sort of thing (no matter if it is a BIG issue or a SMALL issue) becomes a BIG DISCUSSION in CHINA? It becomes a BIG DISCUSSION in China because in China you do not have modern methods for dealing with crime . . . and so the normal citizens, like yourself, don't trust your own police and justice systems. Please try to see my point. I am not trying to be rude, MeiMei, but your comments are simply not accurate.
Jan 23, 2013 20:04 Report Abuse
MEIMEI WROTE: "you are going on and on about something people not reading." AND THEN MEIMEI WROTE :"you try to make small of it" Then how do you know what I am saying in my posts? MEIMEI, please slow down and take a moment to think about what you are writing. I mean, seriously, MeiMei, IF you are not reading what I have written how would you know that I am making small of it or making big of it? The simple fact is, MEIMEI, I am not trying to make something BIG or SMALL of this. I am trying to place the matter in the proper perspective, in the proper context. This sort of matter would never be discussed in this way in a country that accepted the RULE of LAW. In a country that accepted the RULE OF LAW, normal citizens like yourself, and many other commenters here, would not have to discuss this matter on the internet. If China accepted the RULE of LAW, the police and the Justice system would deal with the matter and normal citizens would not have so be ask questions like "how can he get away with this behavior." If China accepted the RULE of LAW there would be no need to discuss the behavior of "Foreigners" vs "Chinese people". If China accepted the RULE of LAW all people would be treated equally, under the law. You, and many others are confused about what is happening to this man, confused about what the Chinese Police will do, confused about what the Chinese Justice System will do BECAUSE you do have RULE by LAW, you have RULE by Chinese Culture, and thus, normal citizens, like yourself, don't trust that the matter will be deal with properly. MEIMEI, you are simply mistaken about my intentions or the meaning of my posts. BUT, then again, you say you are "not reading." YOU are not dealing with the real issue, you getting distracted by the details of this one incident. You are not focusing on the real issue . . . but this is very common in China, because Chinese people are not familiar with the RULE of LAW.
Jan 23, 2013 20:11 Report Abuse
If you continue to look at this issue as something about one person doing a stupid thing how will you ever change the Situation here in China? Do you really thing this issue is just about how to punish this one man. I have never daid this is a small issue. In fact, I have siad very little about this man. BECAUSE I know that the reason you and many others are confused about why this matter is not handle properly is because the REAL ISSUE is that China does not accept the RULE OF LAW.
Jan 23, 2013 20:14 Report Abuse
Yes, MeiMei, you need to see what the real issue are. It break my heart that Chinese peoples take so much time talking about every incident and they do not see the big problem. I don't think she understand, Solhacehabravida. And she say she has not read your words. LOL. Maybe this is why. I been reading this discussion. It is a little difficult for me to follow but I understand the big problem. No proper Rule of Law.
Jan 23, 2013 20:40 Report Abuse
IN OUR COMPLEX WORLD IT TAKES A LOT OF WORDS TO MAKE A SIMPLE POINT BECAUSE PEOPLE BELIEVE THAT THAT WHICH IS SIMPLE IS COMPLEX AND THAT WHICH IS COMPLEX IS SIMPLE. WE HAVE IT ALL UPSIDE DOWN, at least in my view. The world, and life, are very simple if we choose to keep things simple . . . we make all matters complex wth culture and emphasis on differences. Keep it simple, keep it simple . . . and sometimes IT TAKES A LOT OF WORDS TO REMIND FOLKS WHAT SIMPLE REALLY LOOKS LIKE -- culture makes our world complex . . . but a lot of that complexity is illusion and IT CAN TAKE A LOT OF WORDS TO OVERCOME THE EFFECTS OF ILLUSION. Okay, I have more than had my say - and very soon MeiMei is again going to tell me to be quiet LOL Please have a sense of humour folks.
Jan 22, 2013 21:12 Report Abuse
CULTURE IS NOT REAL/CULTURE IS ALSO A MARKET DRIVEN COMMODITY. I try to always remind myself that culture is not real . . . it is a a group of ideas and a vended product that earns profit and is supported by vested interests.. The best thinkers in China are constantly reminding us that the cultural products they want to vend to the world are not the day to day 'un-cultured' habits we see on the street. And, need I remind anyone that "the best and the brightest thinkers in any country are no longer the leaders of the world." Becoming a political leader or busines leader is about popularity or power, not about logic or correctness. We are here as a part of a program intended to try and upgrade that product, that culture. We will make no progress if we debate these matter with CHinese outside our stated perview, which is that foreigners are here to help the reform and opening up program in China. We are here to add substance and variety to Chinese culture . . . so don't get bogged down debating substance and variety with locals who come from a culture that relies only on Chinese culture for it's substance and variety
Jan 22, 2013 21:11 Report Abuse
DON'T AGREE TO THE EVERYTHING THE ROMANS DO WHEN IN ROME/THE BEST AND THE BRIGHTEST ARE NOT LEADING/WHAT IS OUR REAL PURPOSE HERE IN CHINA. I see it all the time, folks . . . and I am not trying to lecture anyone . . . we loose sight of who and what we really are under current Chinese law. All of our woes, as human as they are, if we hope to debate them, discuss them successfully with Chinese friends and fellow commentators, we have to stick to a few very basic concepts and remove ourselves from politics and comparisons of culture. We have to remove culture and politics from the equation. Introducing culture into a discussion places emphasis on difference not on sameness. But if we hope to communicate across cultures we have to remove culture not try to learn the individual cultue of everyone we meet. Now, in the west we are familiar with this but when we come to China we slide into a bad habit of "doing in Rome what the Romans do." And we are prompted to do this by governements in China and people in China who are using their culture as the new ideology of debate between east and west - culture has been co-opted in China, in many countries for political purposes. Culture is beautiful but it is not real. We are here to try and help the Romans, in this case the Chinese, change what they do, BECAUSE THEY INVITED US HERE TO DO JUST THAT.
Jan 22, 2013 20:58 Report Abuse
NO MATTER YOUR SPECIFIC JOB, ALL FOREIGNERS ARE 'TEACHERS' IN CHINA - THAT IS THE LAW IN CHINA. I do not agree with the writer who suggests there is nothing we can do. I believe that we must always keep foremost in our minds, when discussing or debating with Chinese people, that we are not seen as equals here in China. In essence, we are the teachers and they the students . . . we are here to demonstrate the good lesson our Moms and Dads taught us - this is actually where the man-who-scratched-the-cars dropped the ball. We may think that we are here in China for our own purposes, sponsored by our employer or universities. For most of us our purposes coincide happily with the purposes of the Chinese government. But the truth is, we owe our first responsibility to the Chinese people. We are here in China as part of China's opening up and reform program. Individuals and even corporate entities are here, in essence, to help teach Chinese society. That is our true legal standing in China. We are here to help the Chinese develop their society. We may forget this at times . . . but, to the best of my knowledge, this remains the the stated policy of the Chinese government -- that all foreigners are here as part of that reform policy. Those same policies merely 'patiently suffer' the conditions which allow us to have a life outside very strict guidelines, and the laxness in the way those guidelines are enforced could be removed, according to Chinese law, at any time. The national government, which really controls our status and standing, merely suffers the additional freedoms and privileges afforded us by more open environments such as Shanghai . . . and this is a result of trade-offs in the balance of power and economics between the national government and regional or local governments.
Jan 22, 2013 20:52 Report Abuse
YOU CAN'T PLAY BOTH SIDES OF THE FENCE/HAVE YOUR CAKE AND EAT IT TOO - The guy-who-scratched-the-cars, would never attempt to defend himself in a country that recognized the RULE of LAW because he would know that no matter if he accepted the validity of the law, he had to abide by it. And we would never discuss the matter in our own countries in the same way becaue we woul daccept that the LAW is teh LAW. But so many of the foreigners who come to China live here walking both sides of the fence . . . they insist on the higher standards of their own culture when that suits them and then hide away in the lax Chinese standards when that does. AND THAT IS BECAUSE THERE IS NO RULE OF LAW. So, don't debate the validity of a specific law . . . talk about the problems that occur for all people, foreign or Chinese when the RULE OF LAW is not empowered.
Jan 22, 2013 20:47 Report Abuse
WE ARE HERE TO SUIT CHINA'S PURPOSES/ I DON'T AGREE WITH THE WRITER WHO SAID WE FOREIGNERS CAN DO NOTHING - THE PROBLEM IS WE TRY TO DO TOO MANY THINGS, IN A VERY UNCOORDINATED FASHION. What we can do is talk, again, and again, and again, and hammer on, hammer on about very simple matters - if we choose to do anything, such as the RULE of LAW and we can stop getting bogged down in specifics. I truly appreciate people who want to do something but I see that we stick our oars into waters that we shoul dnot. Have you ever noticed how good the Chinese are at employing the tactic of dismissing the value of a point by over-emphasizing specifics? Stay away from specifics and place everything within a few broad contexts - not political contexts but legal, logical, and human contexts. And remember, that even when Chinese get angry with you for speaking out against someting . . . you are, in fact doing exactly what you have been invited here to do. But stick to simple things, if you are commenting seriously. If you are just chatting, fine do so. But if you are truly intending to be heard, stick to simple matters and be consistent. UNINTENTIONALLY MANY CHINEE SEE US FOREIGNERS AS 'ONE ENTITY' AND WE OFTEN SPEAK OF THE CHINESE AS ONE ENTITY but WE DO NOT SEE OURSELVES AS ONE ENTITY, unless it suits our purposes. BUT WE ARE HERE TO SUIT THE CHINESE PEOPLE'S PURPOSES.
Jan 22, 2013 20:43 Report Abuse
WHAT IS AN ESTOPPEL. I have been hammering on about the RULE of LAW, about the relative lack of power given to the rule of law in China. And that is the general problem. The specific problem is related to the absence of concepts such as what is called an "estoppel." In a legal system that recognizes the value of such concept it is impossible for contradictory laws to exist, cntradictions such as I mentioed above. But in China, such contradictions work to the advantage of some . . . that is very tactical.
Jan 22, 2013 20:38 Report Abuse
CHINESE DRIVERS DRIVE AGGRESSIVELY NOT DEFENSIVELY/THE REASONS FOR WHAT WE SEE AND FIND ARE ALWAYS VERY SIMPLE. That is a normal, even logical outcome of the lack of personal power in China -- right stilll equals might in China. In Beijing, when I lived there, there existed an interesting contradiction: the current traffic law stated that crosswalks were intended to protect pedestrians but there existed a contradictory law, governing vehicles, which stated that any vehicle operator who caused a stoppage of traffic at a crosswalk could be fined. Thus, the law both protected the pedestrian and, potential, punished vehicle operators for protected pedistrians. These are the kind of contradictions that result from political systems which do not apply logic, rely on culture, and do not voluntarily update themselves - the left hand often doesn't know what the right hand is doing, and sometimes that is permitted for tactical reasons..
Jan 22, 2013 20:29 Report Abuse
HOW DO YOU KNOW IF THE DRIVER OF A VEHICLE IS TREATENING YOU? The international standard is: if the driver of a vehicle, and vehicle includes, car, motor-bike, bicycle, bus, etc, points the vehicle at you within the safe stopping distance of that vehicles, based on road condions, your speed, and the speed of the vehicle, that vehicle has now become a dangerous weapon and the driver guilty of assult - if they hit you they are guilty of assult and battery or worse. And this same conditions are expressed withing the Chinese legal system. Again, however, the difference is the power that is given to the RULE OF LAW. And in China there is very little power given to the RULE OF LAW; great power given to Chinese Culture and the Ideals of Socialism.
Jan 22, 2013 20:14 Report Abuse
I also hate the way people drive here and the lack of respect they have for other people. Many people are not like this. It seems their is a mindset with poeple who own cars and houses that they are better than the other peasents because they dont have what they have. They have the car, they are king, move out of my way peasent. I hate this very much. I have tried to figure out ways to deal with this also. However, scratches cars, throwing rocks at them, cigaretts, jumping on cars will not change it. What is going to change it, Is when mothers have thier children ran over at stop lights because these assholes think they are their own god. when the chinese finally get sick and tired of it, it will change. WE foreigners can do nothing about this. I just give them an angry stare, and gently tap their car, and shake my fist at them. Maybe that is not a good way either, I also which this could change, but I have no power to change other people, I can only change myself.
Jan 22, 2013 16:36 Report Abuse
Lago, I respect you. I think you are not wrong with your ideas because your situation and mine are different. If this were Mark Rowswell aka Dashan and someone bothered him during his dinner and demanded to play English Dialog in front of his wife and kids and snapped photos of his kids and suddenly Dashan, understandably upset by the invasive intrusion, stood up and snapped, we all could understand it and I am sure even the Chinese would support Dashan, so long as he didn't go too far. If anyone got hurt or property broken, surely Dashan would have to deal with it in the lawful ways just as Mr. Hale should be doing. As most people here know, Dashan has a good reputation and we might be inclined to nod our heads in understanding. This Mr Hale is not famous but he is also not a character with a saintly reputation. If you go to the China Daily website, there in the social section, January 14th, is also an article about this. From those accounts written there, out of respect for his victims, I think I have said about all I want to say about this issue. It is not my intent to get into conflict here, rather I wish the good people of China to understand that although we have our differences, deep down inside us, we are humans and we care and love and respect each other.
Jan 21, 2013 20:37 Report Abuse
I not controlled by politics or emotion. Being a dalian resident who knows a number of people who have had the misfortune to come in contact with this person I just think it pity that my other normal foreign friends get mixed up with what bad things he has done. The car damage is just the thing that has become public but as othrs have been hinting at, there much more to this sick person which many of us know to be true and mostly against chinese people who have kept quiet until now . So sake of all people, chinese and foreign, time he left China.
Jan 21, 2013 14:56 Report Abuse
Just a few more comments: 1. This whole "thumbs up" and "thumbs down" rating system used on these sites - you know, just because a writer get's a few "thumbs down" doesn't mean that the writer is not expressing truth or looking at the matter accurately. 2.I just arrived here in China, well, about a year ago, and I am studying Chinese law. I will tell you that the writer "Solhace" is perfectly accurate when he describes the difference between "the rule of law" and "laws". In my classes, at university, we often discuss how it is that in China foreigners are expected to be "trained" to follow the local culture. So, I personally understand why he felt it was necessary to take the time to write about this and too give examples. And, yes, yes, yes, in many cases if a writer's comments go into detail and as a result he or she writes more than a few sentences most reader's judge that the writer is wasting their time. 3. Personally, I care very much about conditions here in China, and I really wish that people would stop letting politics into serious discussions. Many of these people have very little experience of the world and are controled by emotion - but emotion is not the same as passion. It was emotion, not passion that got this man-who-scratched-the-cars in trouble. I'm a very passionate person and I suspect that writers like "solhace" and "Guest7816" and "Lago" are passionate people. On the other hand, some, like "MeiMei" and "Toyjust" are being controlled by politics and emotion. In this way they are very much like the man-who-scratched-the-cars. Let's all try to be adults.
Jan 21, 2013 14:17 Report Abuse
Wow . . . I'm a bit shocked at the way people get so angry with each other here. What's up with this MeiMei person - I'm sure she would never speak this way in person. And it seems that people look at the length of a person's comment and not at the content of what they write. And it sems that a few folks here, when they read a post that expresses understanding for the anger the guy felt, anger that caused him to scratch the cars, thos folks think the writer is agreeing with the man's actions. It's as though these people are too shallow to see that a we can understand why the man acted the way he did but that doesn't mean we agree with his actions.
Jan 21, 2013 14:02 Report Abuse
I am not aware of anything behind the scenes going on here on this website. I was browsing this site, as I have been doing at random for the last several years. This website is both informative and entertaining. Low and behold, news about an incident involving Mr Hale was posted here. At first I was thinking to just stay out of it, until I saw some comments from others in support. I have witnessed firsthand this individual's deeds and have met others, foreign and Chinese, whom also have had unfortunate dealings. My only goal is to inform those people of the facts about this person. I recall an incident that happened perhaps 9 months ago where a drunk guy was beaten senselessly for trying to do something indecent to a girl in Beijing. That was the precursor to a 100 days crackdown on foreigners, bad press from authorities in the media, countless debates, and a huge unfriendly feeling towards foreigners by the locals. Just like we cant expect laws to be enforced by taking actions here unilaterally, I also know that some locals will never see eye with foreigners simply because some of us are agreeing with Meimei. However, I believe that we all have a choice, to speak and behave in compliance as we were told to do upon arrival here, or to complain, dream about doing something about things, and accepting the consequences of our actions. Personally, I would rather do the correct things and if it earns me just 1 friend in a million, or worse yet, makes me no enemies amongst the locals of the country I reside in, at least this is a success. Now if anyone else here has another agenda, I personally am not aware of it. I don't know anyone here. But I don't get what is the big deal of using a pseudonym vs visitor account? Is it so important that you know who I am even if just as a name other than a GUEST and a Number and lets say you knew who I was, would that change anything? Personally, I think it does not.
Jan 21, 2013 00:42 Report Abuse
The point of the comments I made was that the man in question, from my knowledge at the time, was 'ambiguous.' With people actually knowing 'Mr. Hale' or whomever he may be, brought the topic into unrelated issues on a creepy guy. I also think that this is interesting because by him getting caught, probably nothing will happen, and with the new knowledge of his past, he is expressing his concern with the current lack of checks and balances, and at the same time he's taking advantages of this as well. There isn't a big deal with using a pseudonym. Everyone that is commenting is using one. I just thought using a 'guest' option was weak and doesn't show anything but a number.
Jan 21, 2013 14:47 Report Abuse
I have my reason, you have your reason, we'll leave it at that. I don't feel this issue of name is related to the topic and it won't change anything.
Jan 21, 2013 20:46 Report Abuse
"Solhace" i was busy and when I posted what I had wrote, you had posted some more. But I agree with you. If people are scared to get shunned from his website they have been in Dalian too long. It's a joke. I know the non Asian expat community isn't so large as others, but really? This is a joke. No comments...
Jan 20, 2013 22:34 Report Abuse
Everyone that is commenting on here is ambiguous; obviously I am if you speak Spanish. But you have the option to go by a pseudonym or a visitor and you choose the later. Between ‘visitor’ and ‘meimei’ there are some really big issues with ‘creepers’ in Dalian. As I mentioned I guess I don’t run into this English Teacher bourgeoisie. It seems that Dalian, with a smaller expat community/less tourists, has some issues that it needs to deal with. Once again this deals with non-existent law enforcement on day-to-day issues. I just saw the two posts about ‘solhace’. I actually read your two posts because they weren’t a short story. Within the past day you make some valid points, but you are still going off into ‘lala land.’ ‘Meimei and ‘visitor’ seem to have a vendetta about this individual; gossip, agreed. I don’t know him and his version, sadly I have tired to use in Dalian, is useless compared to other foreigner portals in tier one cities. I still don’t understand what the comments about, ‘he wields power.’ If this is the case that the people, Chinese and not, are so scared of this individual than there is something wrong. Enough said. This is still China. Back to the topic. Traffic laws in China are hilarious. This individual did what a lot of people think about doing and never act upon. He is setting himself up for the same thing he is fighting against. Instead of hiding on Ecities, do something about it in Dalian.
Jan 20, 2013 22:27 Report Abuse
So you are applauding his behavior? He is destroying cars rather than being passive and trolling forums online? I agree that we all reach a tipping point in China and get angry with the way things are here, but violence and destruction are not the answer.
Jan 20, 2013 23:06 Report Abuse
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